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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  October 27, 2009 11:00pm-12:00am EDT

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>> rose: an interview by w brian ross, the investigative porter from abc news. we continue wi the n coen brotrs film. >> my we and i she's gote staying at the jol roger, a litt motel. >> rose: we conclude thi evening with alison gopnik who has a new book about yr children's mind. it is called "e philosophical baby." a story of bere madoff, the co brothers n film and what's behind the mind of
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children. ne. captioning sponsored by rose communication fromur studios in new york city, this is chare rose. rose: brian ross is here. as chief investigati correspondent ofbc news, he hasncovered everything from al qaeda trning camps in pakistan to secret c.i.a. prisons in
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eastern europe and since thetory broke of his $5billion vestment scam late last year, brian has been llowing the bernard madoff story. bernie and ruth madf lived luxurious splendor. their $7 mlion new york penthouse apartment wa decoted in the d money style they cultivated th money that wavery newnd very stolen. bernie and rh each had their own walk in closets, their own dens. his with magany panelg and nauticalrt as seen in these photos obtained by "20/20." life as a crook was very good for very long. >> obviously he slept at night he enjoyed himlf. he lived the goodife. i nev could picture him as nting to hurt innocenteople. bu clearly he did anlearly he knehe was doing it. i >> it was he in the penthouse whene was still under hse arrest that moff learned that two of h victim had committed
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suicide. a french bker slashed hi wrists after his clients lost almost a billi and a half dolls to madoff. then highly decorated retired british army ofcer, william fox ton, shot himsel after telling his so he lt his life savings to madoff. >> he'd risked his lifetime a time and tim again in the rvice of his untry. and that money was h only cushion for h retirement. >> but madoff was unmoved and showed not remorse but contempt for the wkness of the victims. >> h did not seem like the mos contrite person ie ever met. >> did he sm he was asham of at he had done? >> you know, i don'tthink so. >> rose: the story i is also the subject brian ross's firsbook, it's called "th madoff "chronicls: inside the world ofernie and ruth." i'm pleased have our friend brian ross back athis table. welcome. >> tha you, arlie. >> rose: this was criminal om the beginning. >> from the beginnin
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told people closeo him it started at the very beginning back in the 1960s wn it first started. he h many sleless nigs, he said, but after year or two he realed "i can do this." >> rose: and had no guilt abou the ct that he might get caught and a lo of people who trusted hiwould lose life savings? >> no signs ofany remorse. i was in the courtroom whehe was sentenced and he spent about fi seconds... he turned around behind himhere the victims in the courtroom andsaid "forthe victsly now face you a say i'm very o sorry, i know it don't mean much." at's all he's ever said. that was his act o contrition. >> rose: walk through the process wh he knew the deal was up. >> in october/november of last year, about a year ago now with the financial tsumi under way, he realized the withdrawals o peop who were taking their money out to cover other margin calls, oer places they had to put eir money, was were ing to overwhelm him. and he began to scramb tory
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to raiseore money. and he contacted some of his olst investors and got them to put hundreds of millions of dollars more trying to get through this. but by thanksgivinday, he realizedt was pretty mh ov. came into the office.... >> re: and had never done that before, come in on a holiday. >> ner came in on a holiday. camen on thanksgiving day and his secretary said "should i me in?" o, i'll be okay. where's the coffee? he had big bankers come in, tried to talk the out of withawing their money. unsuccessful flew off to palmeach for the weekend and then gan to make the ans to st it down. told his brotherhe gameas up. we don't know what he told h wife ruth, but clearly she began to withdraw moy from her accoun and transfer them t other accounts. >> rose: tens of millions of doars. >> tens of million total about $15 million. someing was clearlyp. yet he continued to try to raise ney from old frids and clo members of the country club whe he played golf down in palm bch and he got some mone
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from them. said "i'll give you a great return, i just need it for a short term piod." and then he began to formulate the plan. he lled his lawyerike sorkin. "i've got to get together with you." >> rose: a very highly regarded lawyer. absolutely. top notch. former head the s.e.c. offi here in w york. then he cancel.... >> rose: cceled the appoint said "we'll do it a week later." >> "do a week later." brought his sons i and told them "we've got to go to the aparent. i want to talk." rose: this is what day >> this is december 10. december 10 theygo off to th artment and there he says "i'm a aud, i'm a lie, it's all a sc, i have nothing, it's done." the boys, according to peop closto them, were distraught. the youngest, andy was crying the floor. and bernie later called hi right hand manack at the office and said "andy pissed his pants, he's really upset." and he was kindof jong that
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the boys were weak. he goes back, he asked the bs, he sd "give me a week t wrap up my affairs then i want you to callhe f.b.i. so tha will diel any doubts abou your innocence. you call the f.b.i., you turn me in, you do i" they wt to their lawyer who said "oh, no, we're doi it right now." beuse that would be a fely to hold that bac and that evening, they wt to fedel prosecutors and began to lay out what tir father had told them. antime.... >> ros without telling him. >> whout telling him. meantime, hs at a local restaurant here for the annual firm ristmas party. li of the party. rose: a mexic restauran >> mexican restaurant famous f their popl grant gt rgaritas. >> ros with his staff. >> wiz w hisstaff, hi wife, his brother the is. ruth asked somebody "what e you doing this chrimas?" "we'll probly go down to palm beach." as if heidn't have a ce in the world. next morninge called the fice and his wife calle the office, "e the boys tre? are they in?"
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they couldn't reachhem. ey were getting worried. where were randy andark. about 8:15n theorning, the doorn calls and says "there's somebodyown stairs, they're f.i. " he's in his throbe, his pajamas, hisslippers. a man who was fastidious dresser,e would not nt to meet th f.b.i. in his bathrobe." they're at theoor and they saidis there a innocent explanation for what y told ur sons yesterday?" and he said "no." and theyaid "you are under arrest, get dressed, we're taki you downtown in handcuffs." >> rose: and thenhe did what was amazing to me, nfessed. >> he confess. >> rose: further. >> further. >> rose: wiout calling a lawyer. >> without calling his lawyer. >> rose: first thingis lawyer says is "stop tking." >> stop talkg. e sorkin went do to seeis granaughter, he's at the nursery school outside o washingtond.c. and he's watcng little kids talking with their teachers, the cell phone rings a "ike, it bernie, i'm under arrest, handcuffed to a chair at the f.b.i. headquarters." well, this is not at ike
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soin, who's a brilliant lawyer had in md at allor how he was going handle this cas he said "don't say another wd, bernie." by thepoint he'd already confessed. >> rose: is tre any evidence, any story, that he considered flight? >> therebyave been rumors of that but iave seen no evince of that whatsoever. >> rose: so whato we have re? the guy kno it's up. he's got t choices. he can try to flee which hiory ll tell youormally people dot either get away with or enjoy. evtually they come back a fa the music two, just cfess everything. or, three, nfess everything with a plan to save other people whoight have been complicit. >> a he chose door number three. he told the.b.i. "i did this all one. it was me a only me. nobody else knew." and that was a mplete lie. >> rose: and... that was a lie? >>hat was a lie. >> rose: who knew then? >> certainly the inner ccle on
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his 17th floor of his office. had thr floors in the famous lipstk building just wn the street here. and the 17t floor is whe thscam operated. in a room that wasop secret, certain code access to get into the ro, only certain people were aowed in. that's where they prind out the phony atements that went out to all the investors. that's where ty did the phony trades and booke these fictional trades. >> rose: and he could look on the trading floor where there was legitima trading going on because there was a sepate company that did... >> didlarge tradesfor institutional clients. e investment advisor buness, the scam business, was separate. he put his sons in the legitimate business. in the ading business. and en people wouldome to the office, they would s that hugefloor.... >> re: and th'd think all the grt stuff is going right here. but they were tradg for investment companies. >> nothing to do wit the investment advisy business. far siness, he never traded stocks. >> rose: so what do we know about this guy? whyas-the-way he was? >> he ew up out in queens, new
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york. his pants were somewhat shady stock deale themselves. s mother was under investigion by the s.e.c. around the time openedis business. sh surrendered her licee to stop any investigation. so the are questions about the family. he began h busins with his wife ruth as sort of the bookkeeper on a folding tle in the apartment. and they began primarily by ing ruth'sather, who's an accountant, as a referral. they got elderly jewish people who went up to t catskills and got them t invest theironey. now, the beauty that was never they were gog to pull it all out. and they were happy with the 10% to 12% t 15%. this was t golden thing. and when they died e money would just be rolled over to the children. and a ponzi scheme can only ist as long as that money is not lled out. you can keep giving 10% or 20% as long as you keep getting.... >> rose: and he wa giving 15% to 20%. that was his retur.
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here's thether intriguing thing. i'll ce back to the pnt, but the otherintriguing thing is that wherever he went, eachay he would get a list of wt would happen to each stock that day and he had a plus an minus with all the big heavy hitters that invested wh him. >>ose: cash in; cash out. that's all h cared about. >> rose: plus andinus. >> he didn't carehat the market was doing. he had know as long a that cushion was therin that one accounhe had here. >> rose: and he h to expln in boo keeping so he would see whatappened in the markethat y and they uld explain if they had to sell what the price was. >> and heould make his phony transaction decisio generally once a month. hend his right han man fra di passscali would ce in. pascali. and they always soldt at the hight point. it's like betting on a re after it's over. yoreally can't los rose: who is pascali? >> pascali was a right han man. so-called chie financial officer. this was guy who never went to
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college. he was paid $2 to $3 million a year in a job he never could ve had. and he was the guy, heas the real henchman. made it happen. he was themechanic, as t prosecutors ll it, who organized it a figuredut the trades and if there everas ybody with any queions, it wod be pascali who would be brought in. nobody else could talk to the investigats or to theutside investorsxcept perhaps pcali >> rose: hs in priso in north carolina. yes. >> ros how is he doing dow there? wh are the repos from north carolina? >> the few reports we've had is that he's doing just fine. one visitor said.... >>ose: giving financial advice to the inmates. >> looki buff. he's been working out. >> rose: that's all you he to do. >> he's on a wor detail. >> rose: what ki of room is he in? >> he's? a small cell. smaller an one of his walkin closets wa >> rose: doe he have a television? i think he has radio there's a groupelevision in a room but hs in an area wher he's got a rio. he didn't want an ipod didn't understand howhat works. he's got a radio.
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>> rose: can he have visitors? >> visitors and there's a point system. but ople on the list, hiswife imarily and a few lawyers. >> rose: how many times has she been down there? >> she's be down there two or three times. visiting hours are based on points. u use up more points if you go on wkends. she tends to g thursys or fridays. >> rose: who has he made friends with in therison community? >> it's t clear. e have been a lot o misinformation. some of th inmates and their families havbeen having fun with the tabloids here with wild stories. >> rose: stories thatre not true? a story came o that he was dying. >>ompletely untrue. when he went off to jail for the fit time, he took no medication with him. he was in perfect health, not diagnosewith any illness a certainly not cance >> rose: now, was he counting on not gettg a big sentence somehow? because he would...isons would turn him innd there would be no one else and he wouldn't be hidin anything and therefore-the-he wld look at sobody else's story who had also... not thatuch by far, but also had bn engagedin some kind of crinal white-coar crime? >> i think in his head he
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ought he'd be out by the age of 80. he looked back a michael milkin and others whoere at the time big time wall street crooks and w they got ten, 15 ars. >> rose: sort of unfair in respect to michael milkin. >> at the te he was seens a major violator. he oked at that and said "well milkin got out aer seven, eight year maybe i'll do ten or 15." head a whole complated thing that actuallyhere wasn't tha much money missing he's very delusional about himself. he's a man who lov himself veryuch. >> rose: as good as an investigative reporter as there , how do you plan to get to him? >> don't know thati'll get to him. he had no re reason to talk. >> rose: why not? all t legal stuff is done. he may talk now. >> every time he's talked th i've seen, he's not told th trut i don't think hiword can be trusted. he acted alone. not tr. rose: well, how do you kno it's not true? >> well, we flow the accountants who phonyed up the unty
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statements. >> ros they said he didn't act alon d they implica anybody else? >> frank di pascali impited himself. he's going tdo a plea dl. >> rose: will he go to prison? >> hs in jailow. >> rose:o he'll sve... >> he'll serve a long term. e sentence hadn't been ordered yet. >> ros they want to figur out how well he'soing to cooperate. >> d pascali thought he, like maff, would be able to stay out of prison awaiting ntencing and he'd cooperate with the b.i.. thjudge said "i'm not going to go along with that deal" and had him lockedp immediately, angering d pascali and putng in doubt how much cooperation hel give to the prosecutors. >> ros he was able to be under house arrest, bernie was. >> yes >> rose: andhat did he do while he was under house arrest? >>e had a luxurious house arrest in the penthouse. two sry place. for the mostart heat around the kitchen table with ruth and oneday he made a lis of the boardse's going to haveto resign from. he showed virally no remors
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no contrition. when theord of theuicide of the french banker came, his reaction to this a visitor w "you know tha guy? he coun't pick a sto if his lifedepended on it." there was sense of sha, nothing. >> rose: no guilt or anything else. >> no, it's "that n's weak, i'strong. he's weak, he killed himself." almost as if deseed to die. >> rose:ow much mey might be hidden somewhere? >> we're told several hundred million llars. >> rose: that's it? >> that's it. >> rose: not $10 bilon. >> aot of the it was recycled. t everybody lost money overl. people put in ney and if they to out 10%every year, after ten years th're ahead the me. >> rose: andany people had been with hi for more than ten years. >> a long time. >> rose: nowwhat happened to thospeople? ifhey put in, let'ssay, a million dollars d over the ocess of the long-term association, ty had taken out $2 million. >> rig. the govement says they're owed nothing. the bankrucy truste says they're owed nothing.
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>> ros but nobody has claim on e profits they eard. >> no. the federal bankruptcy truse isaying "we want some of that money back. that's called the clawback." and this has the victims upin arms. i mean, theytill had an account statement at said we've got $ million in there. and they have nothing. at's just vished. and they're distrght because the prosecuto and the federal baers say that money shoul be distributed irly andvenly. >> rose: you have had a long association being able ttalk toim and haveccess to law enforcement ople, feral, state, local, foreign. theyon't believe there's any moy put away of significant numbers, i mean a billion dollars, two billion, fe or ten? >>o. >> rose: and there sure o that. because th can trace everytng. >> they are arting to trace it and they've seen it show up. one the biguestions is certain people benefited hugely. took out the $5 $ billion. >> re: like a 950% profit. >> exactly. that'sore than a profit. >> rose: and they're loing at
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those pele saying to them "u should have not. innocence is not aefense." >> the suspicion they were part of it. >> rose: anydy who took50% ofit. >> or sent a note to madoff and said "is is what i'll need in percentagerofits in these three months." >> rose: oh, they did that, too? >> apparently. >> rose: and they had thei hands on that little note? >> yes. you don't nt to putn the writing you can help it. >> re: so the story will contue because we want tofind out who knew what? who knew what. is there extra money. th is a man who when bought a suit, he'd go to the store, buy belgi loafers,e'd by te pairs, ten sui. one for each house, he h four homes-- new york, palm bea, out at the hamptons and the villa in france-- then he h six steamer trunksarked at hotels aund the world with a fu wardrobe. so heould always where essentially the same clothes. >> rose: a the to pack bag when he traled. >> travel with a briefcase wh
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his key documents. >> rose: he' die in prison. >> he'll die in prison. >> rose brian rs's book is lled "maff chronicles." before i leave you, what happens to ruth? >> goo question. the government left r with $2.5 million. the will be civil lauits tryi to get that. she has en managed, really, from he.. banishedrom her social s in new york and palm beach becausmany of her friends were hurt badly, her n sier was bankrupted. >> ros her sister? her own sister. >> rose: whas happened to that relationship? >>hat continues to be a good relationship somehow and she in private has told friends that, you know, bere is aan she still loves. 's the same sun tanned muscular lifeguard who went swept r off her feet ata new yorkity beach as high schl sophomore. >> rose: long island onew york city i >> new york ty. >> rose: howong were they married? >> they'veeen marrie now just cong up on 5 years. 50ears this november. it will be their 50th wedding anniversar i imagine she'll visit him in
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prison. she's been ver very loya >> rose: "the madoff chronicle inside the secret world of bernie and ruth." includes bernie's little black book. what his black book >> ts is his book of key contacts and pho numrs and s secretary gave us a copy of it and we published hit i the book. these the people she ys bere deemed to be essential contacts. people on thenside, his inner circle, there are sevenr eight. >> h like madage iss. >> rose: he liked massag women. and there's one official of e s.e. who says he doesn't kno how his nameot in there. somef his victims arein there and some of the people under spicion are in there. >> rose:s always, brian, thank yo >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: joeand eth coen are he. they are ifs cf winning filmmakers behind "fargo" and
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"no country f old men." the latest film is set in a midwestern jewish communi in e 1960s much like the one where the brother grew up. the movie is cled "rious man." here's a look athe traer. >> please, i need help. i've h marital pblems. >> honey, i think it's time that we start talking about a divorce. >>ary, we're going to be fine. >> professional, y name it. >> mary, we've reived a nber of letters denigring you and urging us no to grant you tenure. >> need help. >> we'regoing to be fine. >> i've tried toe aerious man. >> we're going t be fine. >> triedo do right, be a member of the communy. >> we' going toe fine. >> just tell them i nd help. please. >> we're gog to befine. >> i needelp. >> we're goi to be fine.
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>> the rabbi is busy. he didn't look busy. >> he's thinking. ♪ don't you want somody to love, d't you need somebody to loaves ♪ wouldn't you love somebody to ve, youetter find somebody to love ♪ >> rose: are also jning me are the stars of this michael, michl stuhlbarg plays larry gopnik, suburban economics professor and ricrd kind plays arthur, his eccentric olde brother. i am pleas to have allf them that the table. welcome. >> tnk you. >> r (laughs) so, what do we have here? >> what do we got?
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we'rthinking, it's a rare thing where actuallyrailer, i think, mig be better an the movie. (laughter) >> we like the trailer. >> rose: okay, what we have to do here is talk about what the movie abouand talk about your owgrowing up. you had a rabbi after school you would go and see somebody for a consultation and... >> not for consultation, for instction. we went to hebrew school to learn language and, you kw, the whole religious thing. the hebrew language. >> rose: tell me about growing up in minneapis. for us it was aretty... i think it was a tple sort of suburb upbringing except for the fact that the was a lge jewish minority in this particular surb a it was a pretty acte community and that was a large part of our upbringing there ait was most of the other jewish ks in that suburb. >> re: there's auote at the beginning filmthat says "accept
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with silicity everything that happs to you." at the end of the film, this quote. "no jew was hurtin the making of this motn picture." (lghs) what is this about? (lghs) >>ell, that's just... noag is too che for us. (lauter) put it in really fi flint the crawl wondering if the lawyers at focus features who release the film would notice it an either they didn't tice it or th did and didn mindit. so there its. i'm surprised the mber of peopleho have noted hit in the vie. >> rose: you play larry gnik. yes. >> ros what's he going throug through? >> oh, what isn't he goin through? gosh.... >> ros he's a married man. >> yeah, rried man. he st of thinks his life is settled. he enjoys his job. enjoys teaing. he lov his fily. and then sor of thing byhing starts to go wrong in his life and he tries his bes to sort of handle the curveballs that get thrown at him and seeks out some
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spitual guidance from a best friend suggest to themo go talk to the neighborod rabbi, and he doe't think 's nessarily going to help him at all but heoes i anyway and tries to get some help. >> rose: let talk about what's happeninto him. whhe's gngthrough his mid-life crisi >> why he'soing throughis mid-liferisis. because they wrote him that way! they made him. they take delight in torring poor larry. >> rose: (laughs) and talk a minute aboutis wife. or your wife. >> judith gopnik played bizarre lennick. she's the more religis of the two and she gets to a cross rd in their relatnship and decides, well this. any husband of this many years isn't reallyhe man th i want to be with anymore and she fds sy ableman to be the man e wants to spend t rest of her life with. i have a question.
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it wasn't a mid-life crisis. it was just crises that happened during his mid-lif >> rose: what's e difference? >> mid-life crisis ishen you're settled and nothing b happens, you justdon't know... >> you explode anyou want change and thing it comes from the insi out. he doesn't want ange, wants the stability that life should hold. >> various things in his life are upsetnd he has to deal withhem. it's noto much that he's questioning his... you kno, his... erything's going along smoothly ande himself as a crisishere he's qstioning what his life is about. >> that's true. >> re: your mother was re anyour father was ed. your father taught at the unersity of minnesota, correct? >> uh-hu >> yes. >> rose: would he recognizall the chacters in this movie? >> yes,he would recognizeome. i mean, he would recogni... nospecific charaer but i thinhe... you know, he was academicas you say,nd this sort of academic context tt
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the world that larry lives in was... we drewonur... memories of our father's experience andhe people he us to know. >> rose: did yo olderister debbie seem li sara? >> um... no, not exactly. no. >> in fact, memberof the family are... iean, i really think that oside of the academic aect of the fact that michaes character is a professor, in many way my father was very, very different from the carkner the movie. ceainly... my mother, although sh was more religious than my father wasshe was more observant,ssariis inhe movie. didn't resembler in any oth wa >> rose: and whais your characteabout? >> i'm th older brother who. i'm just an unfornate soul. >> rose: a lay about, as
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sobody describes him. >> i thought thatwas wrong. when ty say i'm th lazyood r nothing brother, i'm not. i'm lo and need a ple to stay but onlyecause i don't make an come. least that' how i put it. i don't know if that's what they wrote, but that's how i thought it. i'm brilliant but i'm sad. there are mists in the world >> i think they was smarter one of the two brothers and larry could perhaps adjust socially a little bit bter than arthur and arthur turned inward a little bit and he devoted himself to his men tack us wil >> he turns inward and we know what hpens then. >> andelieve it orot,'ve been asked. (laughter) >> his character unlock is secret of the univee, so yes. >> but the whole movie in a sway a cautiony tale against tuing inward, ist it? (laughter) >> rose: b it's also been written or you've said that this is the most personal movie yove ever made. >> well, yeah.
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a sense st because of e setting an the peri. you know, we grew up in midwtern jewish community and when we were kids it w... 1967 was when we were kid but in terms of the actual story what hpens to the er the, it's not aobiography. >>ose: have you heard some criticism saying thiis kind of arotesque stereoting of... >> we hear that a lot nomore in this. (laughter) >> rose: youe used to it, aren't you? >> we're used to it. so we were... younow, it's threw to a rtainxtent i think weere expecting on this a little more andgot ate little less than weave on some oth movies. but there's alwaysoing to be... there's always... any time you get ecific with pele's... you know, ethcity oreligion in terms ofoming
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up wita chacter or context of characters, there's going to somebody who barks about it. >> espeally jews. thehillip roth qution, ist good for the ws. people... itets their attention ght away. >> the one thing... i don't think i've everold you. the only thing i found offensive is when ty're eating the soup, they slurp it. and i brought this up and somebody said "well, that'sow eastern europeans used to eat soup." so suddenlyt's not anti-semitic but it's gross america. you teach your kids, don't slurp ur soup. these people slurpe >> tt showed up in our research. (laughter) >> rose: you have said your sense of judsm is much more ethnic tn religious >> that's true. the relious thing didt take with us. >> rose: (ughs) it didn't? >> it either does o it doesn't. it sdix or it doesn't. t for want of our parents trying. >> ros michael, set this up,
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this is whereou confront thur about his gbling habit playedy richard. >> i just learned from the lice that... (lauter) .... >> rose: that? >> he's beenitting shivahich in itself require set up. >> rose: roll take. we'll take it onace. (laughter) >> dad, we get channel 4 now but not channe 7. >> ahur, how could you do that to this family? >> it's hardly a cri. i mean, nobody got hurt. >> that doest make it right. >> dad, it really works! >> you knew about it? >> well... >> they must ha finkede out. th knew i could go on wing so they blackballedme and now... >> wha did you dowith the money you won? what's going on? >>ell, i didn't want itnd danny said he coul use it. >> that is so unfair! >> i'll tellouhat's unfr. what's unfair them t letting me flay their cardgame.
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why didn't you give him the money. >> i know about the records. >> you think he bing records? >> sing up far nose b. >>hat a brat! nobodyn this house is getting a nose job you get? >> dny, you're notxcused. we're ill talking. >> whawas this card game, arur. >> some goys putogether a private game i think they're italian. >> danny, what's goingn? >> that's goo you got that clip. people suld know this. we were thinking aut this in the movie. there's a lot of "f troop" in this. (laughter) >> re: so working with these two guys. what ithe signare way that theybehave? >> thehole expience has been tremendous. in terms of how they behave. han is usually pacin back and forth in t background and he's wahing and listeni and joel is the oneho says "action" and account t" most of the time. if we ever had anyuestions or anything they' more tha willing answer your questns an stuff. but they're very kindly, sort of hands off inhis process. >> rose: preparing for t role
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and thinking about the role, what did you do? other than lea your lin? >> well, he'shysics ofessor so i started the facts that were given me which is th i needed be able stand up in front of a group of students and to know how to describe slowed jer's principle, or sloweden jer's cat and the uncertainty principle. so i started withphysics. i wento a tutor and learned the phycs and then i just arted asking a lot of questions in terms of whthis gu is andhy he behaves the way he is d the bacround of how he interacts wh the other pele in the price. >> rose: if y take all these movies thehave made, whether... as i said "e big lebowski" or "no country for old men" oany of them. do youee continuenew any what thedo? >> oh, no absolutely not. (laughter) >> no, and i think they set out not to do that. i will addss how how they... th're very liberal despots.
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>> ros despots? aughter) dictators with a heart. >> well, they are but they know exactly what they want. and one thing th do that's so kind,hen you get you lines everyday, theye called sides, with these gs, you get the story board. so you know what th movie is gointo look like and you just have to ll in the drawn face nobody does that. here's your lines, we'l setp the camera, do your lin. they wortogether and you're part of all of the guys. it's a camp becau they work with these guys so ma times i will tell the story about... am i talking t much ( >>. aughter) >> no. >> i gave an idea based on something and these guys go "yeah, tt's great, su, sure sure, that's great." and it was a nervous tick th i wa putting in so they said "'ll find a place to put in e."
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so i come t the set a i said think thiss the pla where we should do that." they go "yeah yeah,yeah, that's great." so i dit. joel litally comes up and goes "y know what? i thought you were going t sit on the bed, i di't see you working like that at all. itooks good on camera. we'll dot." so he knew wt he wanted but, hey, this works, for it. and that's pretty good. a nice wayo work. >> rose: it's called coaboration. >> but depotic, they know what they want. do you agreeith? >> how doe the despotic come in? >> you don't think it' despotic? >> no, i don't agree w know what we want. >> rlly. >> i don't know. >> rose: now this interesting. >> the two of you do everything. i mean, compad to other people you've worked wi i'm sure we don'kind of in quotedirect as many >> o by g, no. that's absolutely true. rose: larry discusng his living arranment with his wife and her newover.
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>> to keep things onan even keel leadingp to the danny's bar mitzvah. >> the child's bar mitzvah. >> sy and i thi it's bes if you move out of the house. >> move out? >> it makes eminenc sense. >> things can't continue. >> where would go? >> well, for instance, the jolly roger is quite livable, not expense. the ros are imminently hatable. >> this wld allow you to visit the kids. >> there's convenice. it's got a pool. >> wouldn't i make moreense for you to move in with sy? >> yes. >> larry,ou... you are jesting. i think really the jolly roger is the appropriate course of action. >> rose: (lghs) fair enough. richard saiduring the break he wanted to clafy the despotic thing. here's your chan. >> becau i yelled at him in the break. >> but her are guys giving you directions. >> yh, that was good, yeah, yeah. ah, let's do it again.
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and that's.... >> rose: thespotic is do it again >>es. am i rig that they don't do th much? >> they let us do it... what th promised they'reoing. >> rose: >> actually, ah. >>ose: the look for this movie this sort of came from i guess a series of photographs by brad zoeller somebody said o suggestecalled "suburba world." >> yes. yeah. that was good documentary stuff. >> rose: but you got a feeling of what you want the movie.. >> i thi the guywas an amateur photographer who led in bloomington, anoer suburb of minneolis and took pictures inhe '50s and '60s and som of them very evocative of th time and ple. >> rose: i see take a look at e last cli this is where larryhas an encounter with a sexy neighbor. rollape. >> wel she's g me sying at the jolly roger, a little motel the on... >>ou're in t doghse, huh? >> yes.
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that's an understatement, i guess. >> doou take advtage of the new freedom? >> re: (laughs) th's great. he's so good. >> there's a t of plaid. >> rose: did you read anytng or reread anything bore you made this movie >> you know, the one thing we specificallyead was a lot of... i think the morphing for e main part of the movie but tre's a yiddish prolog. >> rose: oh, yea, exactly set in proloe. >> i don't know how we got on to singe because we were specifically tnking of course out doing a movieet in the midwest inhe 60, bute started reading nger and then it stard informingus... got us interesng in that jewish story telling. >> rose: seone said "take together two n country for old men and burn after reading, a series man confirms a new phase
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for the coen brothers, dker d more probing than th easy farce that characterized their workearly theecade." >> rose: rich is not ying it. you're o truth teller, so... >> ihink these guys write a new book. this is. i wish they weren't here. (laughter) think that they write a new book everytime they g out and seat mov and they don't... i don't think they borrow fr anyby. am i right? st say... >> well, you do try to make it diffent each time you go out if for no other reason is teresting to mix things up so u try to... >> if youliked no country for old men, you'll love a series man. no >> rose:there's no linkage there. >> this is ricrd kind talki, i just don't see it. >> we invitichard kind, not anybody else. but what aboutoing from adapt
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corps mack mccarthy to this? you know, it's funny. we wro them both at the same time, the adaptation of corck mccarthy's book and this a few years ag and th endings areirdly sinister in a y. we cribed a ltlefrom corps mack. but i'm cometely ctradicting richard kind, actually. >> rose: >> oh, please. >> something funny out the endings ofhe two movie there's sothing similar. >> i... all right, now i'm coradicting me. ido real agree wi that. i do agree with at. although i think "seriousan's" endi is... i think is can... i don't want to sasay anything. sfup did the title from? >> joel came up with it. from what? >> well, t just from t... in e context of the... in e
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diogue dialoe. there'some sort of... and, you know,itles are funny. they either... they sort snap sothing happens where you come with something quick or you get in that pla where you're sitting aroundor weeks trying to come up wh theitle and then you know it'sever going to happen. they eithehappen quickly or don't happen at all. >> before had that title we referr to it as t jew movie. then we knew nobody would release that. (laughter) rose: his charact, miael's character, gopnik. mean, is that what u fall in love wit thecharacter? or youall in loveith the story? >> well, it's l a kind of big feedck mushed together thing, the tting, the character who might be in that setting,he kind of story.... >> rose: who he woulreact to d who heould be with in the room >> exactly. and differentmovies different that way, too.
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metimes you start wit the idea of a aracter and that sohow starts to suggest the story. d sometimes it can be a story idea. literally like a plot id that starts to suggest chacters thatou start to develop to fit in with that. >> rose: are you sympathetic with him? >> yes. >> rose: srp thet snick >>h, yeah, definitely. any character who you heap that much abuse on.... >> rose: (laughs) >> has earned everybody's sympathy, yeah. >> rose: interesting character to play? >> absolutely. >> rose: because. >> wel.. hmm. whis it interesting t play? >>ose: well, he's going through intereing stuff, i would guess. >>, we and joel was particularly acious about helping me keep ack of the arc thaefs tt he was goinon andalso trying to ke a lidn what he was he was going on and not to reveal t ch too earlyn termsf the emotional turmoil.
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so it was a challenge in terms of keeping that ing iide but keepina lid on it. >>ose: thank you all. thank you very much. great to s yo thank yo good to ha you back. rose:. >> rose: also alis gopnik is here, she direed acognitive devepment lab at the iversity of california at berkey. she has devod much of he time to studying the minds of baes and ung children. in a new book called "the philosophical baby she says they imane, care, and experience more th we would have eve thought possible. slateagazine says gopk's book is ere you want to go if yowant to get io the headf a baby. withhat said, i'm pleased to have alison gopn back at is tabl weome. >> thank youor having me. >> rose: this isomething else. what children's min tell us about truth, le, a the
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meaning of life. thephilosophical in the titl is interesti. yeah. well, it's really sposed to mean twothings. so one piece ishat it turns out that looking at very young chdren can help answer some big grand philosophil quesons like how can we find out the truth about the world or wh's the origin of our moral sentents? but 's also suppose to say that the babies themselves are solving and workin on thinkg abousome of those big philosophical estions. how doeshe worldsfwhoshg what's goingn in the mindsf the her people around he what's the nature of love? the are all things even babie and young children are trying to figu out. >> rose:hose are the queions babies are asking as well ults? >> as well as adults. that's right. so they n a tela philosopher something and they're kin of phosophers themselves. >> rose: babiesearn more, care more than we eve imagine. >> right. >> rose: why do we have such little expectatis of them? >> i think that's a really od question and i think that wt always happened is the people
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who knew babies the best,ho looked at them the most thought there'more going on herehan is appearing on the surface. look at e way they're looki. but it was very hard to prove that scientifically. and foreal knowledge youant to have me scientic demonstration. what's happened over the last 30 ars is that we've leaed scieifically how can-to-ask babies andoung children what they thinkn their lanage instead of our lguage. what we've lened to dos look at what bies are loong atwhat they reach for, how they smile and lookt that stematically and give the.. we've learned how to ask them questions by snowing them real objects, getting them to do things. when doe tha it turns out we discover they ow mh more than we ever would have thought before. rose: what's the most surprising thing y have lened about the cognitive behavior and getting inside a baby's mind? >> well, i think one of the most pressive things just in e last ten years is that even very young babie understand something about statistics. so, you know, grown ups are
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terrib at understanding probability. anyone who's taken an introductory stastic class will tell you that. but it's turns out we can do experiments with even ry young bies that showhat they have some basic principles for learning obablisticly about the world. so a exriment that colleague d, you can show a baby abox full of ping-pong balls,0% red, 20% wte. and now the baby sees someo pick four white ping-pong balls and one red one out of this most red box. and the babi a surprised and look much longer athat event than a more likely event like picking four red and one white fromn 80% red box. so then that means a a really imrtant principle of statistical inference about samples something that we're seng in even these teeny babi. and we've discovered th even young childrennd very small bies are using the same kinds of principles to learn about the
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wod that the most sophiscated computer macne learning stems are using. >>ose: do youse your nephew and youniece luke and ovia as subjects? >> well, i have... haven't used any o the children that i'm closest th as subjects, but i've learned a l from looking atoung children. and asas you may know my niece ivia has a wonderful... one of the things i writ about is iminary companions. becausthey're a great example of something we take for granted chilen have. >> rose:nd they that shows creativity? it swhez? >> well, shows the possibility thinking about alternative wayshat the world could be. so for years people like freud thoughthat children had imaginary comnions because they were confused about t difference betweenfantasy and ality. it turnsut thas not true a al even yng children know perfectly well "this is the real friend, this is the imaginary friend." but.... >> rose: so olivia neverhought charlie ravioli was a real friend. >> no.
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t what the children seem to be doing was expring what philosopherscall counterfactuals. that's all the possibities, all the different ways the world could be different are from the way it actually is. and one of the things we know that children arlearning about the most isow other peoe work. right? that's the most important thing foa socialpecies like ours. and they sm tonvent iminary friends as a way of exploring how did th people around me--nd especially how did the people in my partilar culture work? so olivia was my niece growing up inew york, had an imagiry frnd charlie ravioliho was too busy play with h. so she'd leave imaginary answering macne mess ans. "charlie, couldyou get back to ?" and aside from bng a wonderful fuy, cute sty. what that showedas that even thou she was only tee, she'd already picked up some really important basic neral usal principl about how pple in new york work. and she cod exercise her understanding of those principles timagine possibilities.
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kind of like einstein sayi what would happen if the speed of light were different? up? so when yosay that in terms of consciousns, the mind of kinds is like a hasn' earn. >> right. >> rose: and theind of adults is le a spoight? >>ight. >>ose: what do you mean? >> well, one of the big zzling philosophical questions s alys been what's consciousness like. and for development psychogists.... >> ros unanswered by the way >> unawered... well, we don't have an answer to the big, big question whi is how could a uple of pounds of gray goo have consciousexperience? but we're starting to see a lot of links.... >> rose: gray goo i whate're calling our brains? (laughs) at's right. but we're starting to see a lot of links betweenhe kind of consousness we have and what our gray goois doing and when we look at babs' brains, what we see is that they'rectually more connected. there's more synapti
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connectis in babies' brains than alts. and when adultspay attentiono something, a tiny poron of their brn relevant to what they're payi attention to gets to be particularl good at procesng. it gets saturated with chemical trsmitters that make it changeable. t the rest ofur brain stays the same. anwhat happens to u in our nsciousness is we're very vidly conscious of one thing, the thing we pay attention to but we damp down our consciousness everything else so we know sometng not about the grt big question, but about how tha particular vivid exrience of attention when i'm focusing on something, i'm really conious of it and everything else disappears. we know how that works in grown-ups. when we look at bies, what we see is tha theirttention is all over the pla. they're really sort of paying attention to the wle world at once. and what they see is determined by what's most vapt kating and interesting and inrmation rich. then when we look at the brain wes see that their bras are saturad in these chemicals that w adults just squirt on the ny part of e brain we want to y attention t
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>> ros they have more neural pathways, o? >> they have more synapses early on. and at happens as we get old jer that we pruneut... we lose those synapses, the connection we d't use and the connections we do use get to b stronr and stronger >> rose: what haens to the ones we don't use? >> they... we... they just ki disappear. so that ma sound kind of scary and depressing, but actlly, of course, one of the things that's really imptant for us as adul is not to y attention to everything once. in fact, when we say e-schoolers don't pay attention, whawe really mean is tt they don't not p attention. they can't jus edi out the things that aren't iortant and ju focus on the thing that are. that our gat adult gi. >> rose: why d some adults hav child like riosity and others don't? >> rig. we, i thinkhat's aood estion. i thinall adults have the potential to continue to perience the world in som of the ways that children do. but i think a nice example is ke when we go to a foreign
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city. when we go t beijingor the first timenduddenly we're all like babies. we're in a world that'snew and rich and everything's... everything arod us is unpected. you know aspposed to ou daily life when we're sically neing zombi most of the time. we go to the newlace, we have toearn something new and sudden we expernce everythingn a new way. >> rose: what's the biggest mistake that adul make in terms so of being the right catalyst or not necessarily the best catalys for their chilen? >> well, i thk.... >> rose:n terms of their brai. >> right. i think right now we're in a strange situation becausfor the rst time there's a generation of cagivers, pares, who've never taken care of a baby before. and haven't enatched other peop take care of babies. and we know th the way that humansearn most things is we practice dng it when we' younand we watch oer people who are exper and we learn how to do it.
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that's how we leaed how to be pants for most of history. and now we'r in this very strange situatn where we have rents who don'thave that experience. and i think they tend to think that there's some magic book they can read or formular technology or expert or toy that they could buy that would solve e problem. and so i thi mostly what we need to stay is ty need to just kind of leave e children one. the babies don't need to be my smter. th're as smart as they could possibly be. >> rose: and don't hover ove them all the time. give them achance to be exploratory? >> what we've disvered is that when babies are just playing, and just plang with an attentive, loving adult, that's when all thefantastic cognitive work and learning is takes place. and i think it's a bit inic, because having sd that, we spend billions of dollars on all this stuff tha doe't work, like the special toys, but e thing at we know is portant; which love gt, supportive caregirs, that we don't
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pride much support for in our culture. so if we really wante the babieso be smart, what uld do is have pantaleave and.... >> rose: so it'time? it's realltime? >> and peoe. and i think if you thinkbout it, in human history, even know st ages we di't haves man obvious resoces, we d have the resource of hang, say, a big extded family with lots of people payingattention to chdren. lots of people being invested in success children. and that's really th.. that' really the sect. rose: if philosophal baby, what children' minds tell us out truth, love, and the meaning life. alisonopnik, thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communicaons caioned by mediaccess group at wgbh access.wgbh.org
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